Rose saga: thinking about pruning back in June?

Hello all,

I need some guidance on this rose situation -- an old rosebush with severe black spot that has now lost almost all of its leaves.

It grew out nicely when Spring came and was covered with flowers, and I felt like I was keeping up with the black spot. But then the black spot really took over and it has now lost more than 3/4 of its leaves. There is little foliage that doesn't have black spot on the leaves -- some shoots coming from the bottom of the rose, and some shoots that are coming from the top (or end) of canes that are completely barren of leaves. We've had so much rain, it's already humid, it will only get worse...

I've sprayed several times with milk, and then last week started with Earthtone 3-in-1 Disease Control that is .20% Sulphur and .01% Pyrethrins, supposed to control black spot, powdery mildew and rust as well as insect and mite pests.

Now to my question. I am thinking of pruning way back to where there is relatively healthy leaf growth (which honestly would be almost to about ONE FOOT from the ground... and I am really hesitant to do this...).

Then I'd also remove and replace the mulch and topsoil and continue to spray weekly, including the wood fence behind it and the mulch.

CajunBelle reco'd a Bayer product that I could try... the nursery dude rec'd a really strong chemical thing but I wasn't so sure he knew what he was talking about and it was extremely heavy duty for the insects and whatnot.

The other two roses are doing better than this one but also not looking so great, though still have leaves to spray that are not riddled.

Your help will be greatly appreciated. This old rose is really worrying me. How can I baby it into some sort of state of health this summer so that it will have half a chance of surviving the winter?

Thanks.

 

Well Daisy, you know--pruning roses is not a really good idea in the middle of the season; generally speaking, but I have done exactky that a couple of times and my rose had done just fine. I may have been lucky. Usually the best time to prune is in March. The reason for this is that therer is then time to form new growth and it will harden off so that it won't freeze in the winter time.

The tone of your posting seemed to indicate ...well, not desperation, but a genuine concern, so perhaps some unusual measures are required.

Firstly, if you suspect that your rose may well succumb to an illness, then by all means prune it back--what would you have to loose?
On the other hand, if the only problem is black spot, I do not think that this will necessarily kill your bush.

In these vague and unclear situations I might be inclined to do some pruning. I don't know if I would prune it all the way back to one foot above ground level, but I might well prune it (or some of it's branches) back as much as half way.

--If you do elect to prune some or all of it's branches be sure that you don't just simply lop off the canes willy-nilly...Look for growth nodes and cut just distal to the node (e.g.above them).
Look for small growth nodes.
When you prune, these nodes will start growing and turn into new branches, so it is important to try and find nodes that are on the side of the cane that you want the new branch to grow in. That is to say, the new branch will grow in the direction that the node is facing, do you understand what I am trying to say?
If the node is on the south side of a cane, then when it grows, it will grow southwards. Get it?

--Next after you have finished exfoliating contaminated leaves, prunes and cleanes the surrounding soil at the base of the plant...then you can spray your spray.

--Then I would feed it generously with a special fertilizer for roses and water thoroughly and re-apply a nice, thick layer of mulch on top of it all.
...Then you wait.

--At the end of the season, just when it is ready to start freezing at night, you could enclose this rose in fleece to protect the newly grown canes (if they have not hardened-off completely).

**It will then be a good idea to check inside the fleece a few times during the winter and certainly in the early spring before you actually remove the 'tent', to see if aphids are colonizing in there. If they are, they must be erradicated.
You can also make small 'vents' in your fleece during sunny daylight hours to allow some air circulation in, so that things don't get too moist in there and the black spot attack starts all over again. That would be a shame.

--When it is March again, you can see if you want to prune. If you do prune March is the time to do it, as I said above.
Then it's just a question of waiting to see what your rose will do.

It is fair to say that there will be some folks that would not agree with this suggestion...but I made it in good faith because I have done this procedure myself without any untowards results.
Still, in the end you in the best position to determine what the seasonal limitations are there in your garden where you live. I mention this because the climatic conditions are the key factor to be reckoned with in this whole thing, as it has a direct effect upon the new cane growth that you are trying to attain.
Good luck, Miss Daisy--Keep us posted.

 

I was feeling kind of desperate, actually. I feel like I'm watching this rose die a slow death...

I feel a little better already though. Thank you for your advice, which I will process a little at a time, with of course, QUESTIONS!!! :-D

I guess my biggest question at this point is whether this bush can survive with almost NO leaves left, or pom-poms of leaves at the top of long bare canes..... I am going to take a picture of it tomorrow so you can see the reality...

I understand what you say about the timing of pruning back and that was extremely helpful input. If the black spot caused the leaves to fall off all the way to the bottom, are you saying that possibly, the rose will put out growth nodes along those same canes during this summer? If that is the case, I see why to put off pruning. Would I then spray any new growth, as well as old growth?

More tomorrow. Thank you again.

 

Here are some pics of this poor rose...


The whole bush. ( photo / image / picture from daisybeans's Garden )

You may be able to see where there are a few more or less "healthy" clusters of leaves closer to the ends of the canes, as well as that have grown from the bottom on the bush. What I have read says to remove all diseased leaves... which would leave this even more bare.

One other thing -- I am hesitant to use anything really heavy duty chemical-wise. This rose is very close to my figs... so of course I eat them, but also many many many birds and bees do too, so I don't want to endanger them.






All the leaves have fallen off of this cane. ( photo / image / picture from daisybeans's Garden )






( photo / image / picture from daisybeans's Garden )






( photo / image / picture from daisybeans's Garden )

Thanks for your suggestions and advice.... :'(

 

daisybeans, I have an organic solution to your black spotting problem

it's something that I read about a while back and it should help

using baking soda in spray form helps prevent or manage plant diseases, including powdery mildew AND black spot

here's what you need

1 1/2 tablespoons (22.5 g) baking soda

1 tablespoon (15 ml) vegetable oil

1 1/2 gallons (5.68 L), plus 1 cup (236 ml) warm water

Combine the baking soda and oil in 1 cup (236 ml) of warm water. Stir until the baking soda is dissolved. Add the baking soda mixture to the 1 1/2 gallons (5.68 L) of warm water and stir until blended. Pour into sprayer; use immediately.

I hope this helps. I will pray for your rose bush!

 

Well Daisy, it´s difficult to say with 100% certainity that the bush would survive without any leaves, but I suspect that it would and possible even produce more leaves with new growth.

I suspect that some of those canes already have growth nodes lying dormant and waiting for stimulation, i.e. pruning or the July feeding. Look closely for them Especially pn the older canes.

Spraying new as well as old growth-- I think that it would be prudent to to do just that, at least for awhile because the new growth will be in close proximity to the already infected leaves and canes.

You know Daisy--it looks like that rose has been planted on the north side of that fence. If this is so, I would give serious consideration to moving it to a different location where it can get full sun over it´s whole `body` and better air circulation.

Your concerns about using `heavy duty` treatment sprays is absolutely legitimate. There are enough alternatives.

Those second set of pics really show the sad state of the bush. However, I have seen them much worse.

Chin up...the battle is not over.

 

Thanks for the baking soda tip, FBF -- I'm going to keep that in mind for maintenance. Another organic remedy reco'd by others on this forum is to spray with milk and that helped out my other two roses with less severe black spot. I appreciate your rose prayer too -- that is very sweet of you.

This third rose is in Intensive Care!!!

Sjoerd, I spent a good amount of time with this rose today, picked off a lot of leaves, did no pruning, but clipped a few badly diseased shoots. You are right -- there are nodes ready to grow, including on the older canes... and there is also some healthy growth here and there. I hope that will sustain the bush.

I sprayed again with the rose spray containing sulfur which I read is OK for the birds and bees ... I removed the top layer of mulch... Cleaned up the area very well... sprayed the mulch and the fence too. I went ahead and fed the rose. I gave it lots of encouragement and your best wishes!!

Re: the placement... the fence runs N-S and it is on the East side of the fence. And really, this rose has been there for 50 years with the fence being at least 30 years old. So I am not so much inclined to move it, esp since it has generally done well.

We have had weeks of a LOT of rain and warm temps... perfect conditions for black spot.

BUT I agree about it needing better air circulation. One thing that I did earlier in the season that I think was not a good move, was support the long flexible canes with string attached to the fence so I think the leaves stayed too moist where it touched the fence... To help with that, I was thinking that for this year, I would let the canes loose and just support them on some stakes out in the grass. My thinking is that if I prune it back correctly and at the right time, the canes will grow out less spindly next year and I'll support it properly.

Does that make sense? I don't know, it might help. My fence is in line to be replaced in the Fall, and I'll rethink the structure in that area too. Till then, I think I'll take down some of the fence slats to increase air too.

Thank you for your encouragement. I am glad to hear you say you've seen worse... I feel more hopeful now, to be honest. Whew. What drama in the garden today!

 

Daisy, it sounds like you are taking a serious crack at helping your rose out. I like your determination and the thoughtful way that you are tackling this problem.
Although the 'pro's' suggest that you begin with the spraying in early spring are the leaf buds are forming, you are at another phase now and are busy with containing the blackspot's spread.
The fact that you have had some success with treating two other bushes in your yard demonstrates that various treatments can indeed make a significant difference.
I am curious to know if those other roses have a fence or wall near them that inhibits good air flow.

I see what you mean about not wanting to move the rose...and not all roses do well when transplanted after they have become adults.
Altering the fence is indeed an option that would accomplish the same thing--better air flow.

I am glad that you could find the nodes along the canes...I was thinking that I couldn't imagine them not being there, actually.
Since you have spotted them, you can now make plans as to where you want to prune your rose.
Your plan with staking them...etc. sounds a good one to me, for all the reasons that you mentioned. It does make sense, yes.

Well Daisy, that rose will be something that will require your attention for the rest of the growing season, I think. I hope that you can stick with it and that you do get a handle on that blackspot.
I think that you will eventually get that contained and enjoy the rosebush again. When I see the pictures from various angles, It really doesn't look all that bad at this stage. I can see the level of devistation alright; but over all, it doesn't look as bad as I had originally envisioned from your first post.
BTW--you are disposing of those infected leaves and so forth aren't you?...and not putting them on your compost pile--right?

 

Hey Sjoerd. Thanks. You've been so encouraging.

I'm being fastidious about disposing of the leaves and debris in the trashbin, yes!!! We are now due for another week of rain and clouds and humidity . Next year I will most definately spray early and regularly. I will no doubt need guidance on the pruning aspects at the right time, but for now, I'm just focused on keeping the rosebush going and containing the black spot. And watching the other two carefully.

The other two. One is by a chain link fence, so air flow is better but has been somewhat restricted by what is growing up against the fence on my neighbor's side. There is another (old) rose that has not had any black spot at all (thank goodness...) and a whole lot of other viney stuff that I keep up with constantly to keep it from going after my rose and lilac. When neighbor is not at home, I reach over the fence and yank out the stuff by the roots...

My other rose is by a stucco wall of the house but is in a nice Southern exposure. That one is the American Beauty that had only one bloom the past few years -- this year with lots (and lots) of TLC, it had about SIX! So I am happy about that.

Rose #3, I think will eventually be OK... looking a little worse for wear this year though. I have learned a lot and have been doing many things wrong these past years... Thankfully, no longer going at it by trial and error, thanks to you. Much appreciation coming in your direction!

Enjoy your day, Sjoerd.

 

Daisybeans hang in there. :-? Our roses always have black spot because of our damp/wet climate. They loose their leaves, but the leaves seem to replace themselves with time during the growing season. I've turned to planting lavender and other light and airy perennials at the base to help cover up the bare stems of the roses . So far (about 20 years) the roses seem to wax and wane with the years that are dry and wet. Washington is the Evergreen State but that doesn't seem to apply to roses in the rain forest. Good luck!

 

Thanks for the encouraging word Jewell.
This has been the wettest Spring in many years, they say so with that in mind, I guess it makes sense that black spot would become so aggressive. We have had two more thunderstorms today with more predicted every day the next five days. I've just made checking the roses something to do more regularly than before, and that includes picking off diseased leaves, cleaning up the area, and spraying weekly and after the rains. It can be a little therapeutic. Quiet, focused, nurturing sort of activity. So... only time will tell on this most infected one, but the other two will be OK. This one probably will be too. I like the thought of some lavender planted there too, maybe next year when I have a better handle on them. I was doing a few things right, and a lot of things wrong!

 

good luck with the roses daisybeans!

 

I'm in there with them, GN... One is doing great. Another is doing OK. That third one is just a hot mess but I think it will be OK. The rose experts here have helped me out and will keep me on the right path with them!

How is your knock-out rose garden doing?

 

Hey there! Im a lil late on this but I wanted to stick my 2 cent in.

About 3 yrs ago I had 20 odd roses and my yard was flooded by a very determined storm. All my roses were hit with black spot and mildew saved my rose trees. This was about late May or early June. I fought and fought to get rid of it but I finally gave in and pruned them all back as I would have for winter. I stripped all the remaining lives and cleaned around them really well, including digging up about 5-6 inches of soil just under the base. I gave my girls some rose food and just kept a very close eye on them. They bounced back like it was nothing...and I had gotten rid of the black spot and mildew.

If you are having a mild summer, I really dont see a reason why you cant prune them back now. Esp if you are planning on moving them. Youll want to do both at the same time tho.

I wasnt having a mild summer when I had to prune them back but then I didnt have a choice. It was either that or have black spot run thru my whole garden.

Good Luck

Pinkie

 

Thanks, I appreciate your 2 cents, Pinkie.
Maybe this weekend I'll post a pic of how these roses are doing lately so everyone can weigh in. Two of the three are doing OK. One even just gave me a bloom, bless its heart! The third I think will survive, just looks a hot mess. I'll get them back on track by this time next year, I think.