Well.. Not quite but they are heading that way. They've dropped a lot of leaves in the last couple of days. Already on the larger of the two I can see some dead wood. This happens every year. Some of the lower branches turn whiter progressively through the winter. But they are always replaced by new growth at the top. Once the leaves have all fallen off, I'll remove them. Then I can decide if any "untrainable" new branches need to be removed or others wired to fill up any gaps left by the dead branches. I will probably put a net over the large one tied down to stakes to get it to retain the "dome shape" I like. The smaller one is O.K. I got into training that one from the day we bought it. The larger one was ten years old before I decided to train it.